Difference between revisions of "Talk:Saltpeter"

Latest revision as of 04:31, 19 July 2011

Dungeon Mining and Luck

Something like this?

Nimuaq 11:43, 6 July 2011 (PDT)

• I hope you don't mind, but I moved the table to the top! --Multani 22:42, 6 July 2011 (PDT)
  

Don't mind at all. Just did my first test. The area I hit is a special area (I believe it was an EM Area and someone gave me a rune) I counted swings between strikes and not of course swings to mine the niter deposit. I am thinking using the hit and run method significantly reduces the effect of luck. --TullyMars 06:47, 7 July 2011 (PDT)

Right off the bat it's obvious that a huge amount of luck has increased the saltpeter collection, what kind of suit are you wearing?? I'll have to look into a high luck suit, because I thought my 700-900 was high! I'd be curious to see if there is indeed a minimum amount of luck required to start noticing a difference, I'll be testing tonight for another 2 hours of mining using a common, middle of the road 700 luck suit. Also, the counting swings part didn't make sense to me for dungeon mining, just boat. Since we're hit and running, I didn't think it applied since when you hit an 8x8 area, it is either there or it is not there (for a GM miner). No use hitting the same 8x8 area more than once in a 5 minute span. My definition of hit and run was to hit a tile, then run about 8 tiles and hit again. And I don't stop running and hitting until I pull up a niter deposit. Or did I goof already? :) --Multani 10:21, 7 July 2011 (PDT)

No goof. I do the same thing pretty much. The counting of swings is my way of counting the 8x8 areas. I just put it in swings because I really don't count the number of steps I take between swings. In theory each swing should be a new 8x8 area, in practical terms it may not be. I do the constant walking and hitting my macro. My suit is fairly high luck. I imbued my mining gloves with 100 luck then enhanced with gold ingots for 140 luck (failed and lost gloves about 4 times before succeeding) I got a lucky necklace on, a robe of the eclipse, each crafted piece is imbued and enhanced so 130 to 140 luck, i carry a lucky bow at 120 luck while I mine (earth el slayer imbued and enhanced) and I am one of those old farts so I get 850 luck from the statue. You can get higher than my luck but I got to a level where I was happy with my results. I always hope for soles of providence when I throw my lucky coins into the fountain and I could carry weapon and shield while mining for a quick boost. One day I will rework the rest of my suit to maximize it but for now 2125 suits me fine. --TullyMars 11:49, 7 July 2011 (PDT)

Well butter my butt, and call me a biscuit. I'm surprised to see that I discovered the same number of deposits, and that the quality of them was what shifted. This is shaping up to be a mighty fine test. Since I'm a pretty avid pirate, I'll often be mining for saltpeter, and I'll be continuing to add my findings to the table. I'll try another round of mining with 0 luck to add to that data, but I'd rather go higher in luck at this point :). The next step I might try is to just do one hour with the statue bonus +400 for me, and submit a round at 1195. --Multani 21:35, 7 July 2011 (PDT)

Finished off my hour of luck bonus and added results. Not much testing overweekend. Too much family RL stuff. Now I will be doing it with 1275 Luck and switching dungeons for my next test. --TullyMars 07:55, 11 July 2011 (PDT)

Did prelim test at 1275 luck in Dungeon Shame, the spawn was giving me more problems than usual so not sure how that effected the time and swings. My earth el slayer bow usually mows them down but today bad run of luck --TullyMars 09:09, 11 July 2011 (PDT)

Alright I am convinced. Luck does play a part but using the hit and run technique in a dungeon can offset low luck. Why? Well its a numbers game. Because we don't spend any significant time on spots that won't yield saltpeter, we can take more shots at finding it. This process is fairly quick if done properly. Sure with lower luck you might have to cover more ground and work harder for it and the net yield will be slightly lower, but this hard and speedy work will compensate for the lower percentages. If we were working each spot we mine bone dry then the disparity in the amount of saltpeter would increase significantly. Though I never got around to a zero luck test, I am going to say that luck is working pretty much as intended and we leave this chart up for others who disagree or who want to add to data still. --TullyMars 05:31, 19 July 2011 (PDT)

"According to the unofficial test completed on July 4, 2011 by Multani, luck plays no significant role in the frequency or the quality of niter deposit discovered while mining in dungeons. The test was done -albeit briefly- mining for 2 hours with 0 luck, and 2 hours with 800 luck with a miner character wearing +5 Mining blacksmithing bod reward gloves."

This is not accurate and probably should not be included. In my experience luck plays a major role first in size of the deposit and secondly in the success of discovery. UO Developer Phoenix_Mythic has mentioned this on numerous occasion...[1] [2] and even in the publish notes themselves [3] The stratics craftsmen forums dares to differ too. 800 luck is a little too low for comparison as many miners top out well over 2000 while they mine(with the 7th anni statue bonus) Running at 2100+ luck for an hour I routinely end up with 2000 saltpeter. Just dropping to 1400+ luck after that significantly reduces the amount I end up with but I need to document. --TullyMars 16:02, 5 July 2011 (PDT)

The main comment used for the dungeon mining section (about 8x8 tiles and 5 minutes) is here. Other Phoenix's comments are (see links above):

• "The alternative to buying saltpeter is to mine it. It can be mined at a rate of 1,000 units or more per hour in a dungeon, with a mediocre luck suit and GM mining skill." and
• "If you are a GM miner and have an easily-imbued 750 luck suit, the odds of finding a niter deposit.. (..) In a dungeon, the odds are a bit different. Depending on how you go about it, you could find niter deposits at least three times as frequently and their average size would be at least twice as large."

The last comment is included on boat mining section but not to the dungeon mining since it is not clear if he means "at least three times as frequently and their average size would be at least twice as large" with "GM miner and have an easily-imbued 750 luck suit" or not. Also, it seems Multani did not observe three times the frequency or twice the size, which was "at least" in the statement, with 800 luck which is higher than 750 (did he mean at most?). Maybe only the real skill counts so with a +5 mining gloves, the effect of the luck is evaluated as 95 mining which might be adjusted to be much lower than GM inside the formula.

The statement makes it clear that a test was conducted by a player which resulted in those unofficial findings, however you're right to say it contradicts with the Phoenix's comments or the findings of other players. I do not have a character with mining skill in my home shard so I can only test it in TC1. If another test results the same way, we can emphasize more on the 800 luck, like "does not appear to result in a significant change until 800 luck". But I will pm Phoenix directly to check with him first. Nimuaq 23:06, 5 July 2011 (PDT)

Thanks Nim, I will try do some testing on my miner at various luck levels. Hopefully Multani can share his results and we can actually figure out a baseline on how to test this out. Right now it is pretty anecdotal on all sides. Just want to keep UOGuide as accurate as possible. No need to feed the fire on uoguide bashing lol. --TullyMars 10:17, 6 July 2011 (PDT)

User:Multani: Howdy! First I apologize for not fully understanding how to format things, all this code stuff (although simple) is giving me a headache! The test that I did wasn't at all comprehensive obviously, but I can do a more serious test. Although I don't think I'll be able to attain such high luck above 1200 (my suit is 800 + 400 from a statue). In my experience so far, with 100 base mining skill and +5 gloves=105 mining and an 800 luck suit, I only unearth massive and gigantic deposits (nothing lower has appeared upon discovery). And in a quick and dirty test of testing only 800 luck vs 0 luck, the difference in saltpeter mined in 2 hours was negligible. It's very possible that there is a minimum luck required in order to gain a bonus in discovery, or that I just had quite a lot of 'personal' luck that day :). Also, admittedly 2 hours mining with/without luck is not a very long time. I'm happy to conduct a more official test on my home shard of Napa Valley, any recommendations?

Also, I don't know who Phoenix is, but if he was the one that said that a mediocre luck suit and gm mining gives 1000 saltpeter per hour, that's spot on to what I received with and without luck. I didn't make any other comments about saltpeter on that page I believe, I've never tried boat mining I believe that was someone else's input.

First off, glad to have you aboard Multani. Don't worry too much about the coding, Nimuaq is getting used to following up on some of my junk coding :) Your results are interesting and cannot be ignored but I was hoping to help out and put them through the ringer a bit before we post up on the official page.

To continue here is the data I plan to collect during some tests over the next week.

• Mining Skill unmodified - I imagine we would want GM Miners
• Mining Skill modified - This could go up to 105 with the mining gloves
• Location - just a general description
• Location Type - Is it Dungeon or Ship Mining
• Method - Strike once, if no niter then move
• Evidence of other miners in area that may skew results - Yes or No
• Luck - Here they would put their actual luck
• Duration - They could put duration or start and end time here
• Number of mining swings to discover deposit - This would not include strikes to mine the deposits found
• Number of discovered Gigantic
• Number of discovered Massive
• Number of discovered Huge
• Number of discoveredLarge
• Number of discovered Small
• Total amount of saltpeter recovered per experiment

If we get a good representative value of tests, we might even be able to figure out a rough formula (though that can be risky to post as it can be torn to shreds) Nimuaq, How do I put this in a chart or something? --TullyMars 10:47, 6 July 2011 (PDT)

Sounds good to me! Tonight I'm going to start collecting data, but should we agree on a minimum or specific duration? Or should we agree on a certain path to mine and document salpeter gained per rotation? I think that we should probably stick to duration. The area that I mine ensures that I'm always hitting spots that are beyond the 5 minute timer... however, there is one point in the rotation where I'm required to travel back to the beginning (about a 2 minute run). Tonight I'm going to collect data on my regular miner setup- 105 Mining 700 Luck (I'll test 700 first, since this is a suit that can easily be attained by all characters: 100 luck imbued on everything, minus mining gloves) Ilshenar - Twisted Weald/Spirituality Moongate/Blood Dungeon Mountains (Dungeon Mining) Method - Strike once (but for boat mining, isn't it true that you just keep hitting the same spot until you get it?) Other Miners - No way, I'm the only legit miner around Duration - I would normally go for 2 hours, but I could squeeze in another hour maybe? -Multani 11:27, 6 July 2011 (PDT)

Nimuaq you're the bomb, and looking at all of this, there's a ton of little goodies to learn about editing these things :D I'll update it with results from tonight's dig!

--Multani 15:08, 6 July 2011 (PDT)

Moved the table to the top, added results from first test!

--Multani 22:42, 6 July 2011 (PDT)