Talk:Head Slot

Ceruleus, I simply do not understand the need to restore an incomplete and inaccurate list to this page. It already linked to the two pages dealing with the complete and accurate list - links which you removed...

I fail to see how this helps anybody search for headslot items!

One solution would be to copy those two lists to this page, but that type of redundancy goes against one of the main purposes of a wiki. Or perhaps the links could be made somewhat more obvious. Take your pick.

- Bomb Bloke 11:39, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Bomb Bloke, you simply did not state that the list was incomplete or inaccurate when you removed the list. Summarizing your edit as "Snip. Snip. Snip." is a waste of your time and mine. If you would have included the actual reason for the deletion, I would have created a complete list.

It it my opinion that a listing of items that occupy each equipment slot is fundamental to the individual equipment slot pages. What is the point of two incomplete lists? Wiki is Hawaiian for quick; opening two pages to see all of my choices for a single equipment slot can in no way be considered wiki. We're not printing these pages on paper, so I don't see why you insist on removing germane information, i.e., relevant and appropriate.

As neither of your linked to lists are complete, I pick restoring and completeing said list. In the future, you might want to simply flag any incomplete or inaccurate list as such, rather than deleting them; maybe someone else will complete and correct the list, which is the essence of wiki, too.

The list helped me search for an item that fit in my head slot from all of the vendors in Luna on my shard via a popular third-party web site, as I cannot recall, on my own, all of the various names of all of the items that fit the headslot. Come on, man, work with me not against me. What does an extra 100Kb matter? --Ceruleus 01:01, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

P.S. The two lists of which you speak cannot be seen on a single screen. The list I plan to post will not be a colored table with an image of each item. Therefore, I plan on emphasizing the links to the two lists, as well. I pick both. --Ceruleus 01:12, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I'd assumed that the faults in the initial list were self evident, and that following the links I'd added to the page were enough to clarify that to those who weren't sure. In fact, many of the items in there didn't even exist under the names given, and at least one wasn't actually a head slot item! Nevertheless, I'll try to stress such things via the edit summary notes in future.

It's worth pointing out that at this stage, we have a page and category for every single bit of base armor in the game (with the exception of those that can't be obtained in their base forms (eg Elven Plate), but adding those would probably just cause confusion). There should be no red links leading to such pages.

So on that basis, yeah, your new layout (on your talk page) looks good to me. The redundancy thing I was talking about was just a matter of my personal taste (as opposed to accuracy, which I consider far more important), so don't worry about that too much. Though I'd be inclined to link to the categories instead of the base items (I'm under the impression this makes it much easier to find things and understand the difference between "very" similar items, such as the Radiant and Twinkling Scimitars - it was a long time before I realised they had the same base, given that there's also a plain Scimitar class), and have been intending on tweaking all the armor segment type pages (eg Gloves), which currently links to base items) to do so (making them the same as the weapon lists, eg Archery Weapons#Weapons). The reason I have not yet done this is due to those wretched image links (I want to implement those at the same time (in order to save time), but I'm starting to suspect JC will never update the extension). But, any thoughts on the matter?

- Bomb Bloke 04:27, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Not sure how to format talk pages.....For example I have no idea how to time stamp these comments. It's about 11:20pm eastern time, 25 March 2009.

Comparing the page as originally created to the page now, and the page as first edited by Bomb Bloke (the "snip snip snip" edit) reveals that the page as originally created is simply far more accurate, and the page as "snipped," and as currently stands, is rather useless.

First of all, the page as it stands now, and as originally "snipped" by Bomb Bloke, leaves out some of the most useful pieces in the head slot: Reading Glasses.

Secondly, it leaves out the orc headgear. This may not be important to some players, but the use of orc headgear is extremely important to people RolePlaying orcs, which have historically been a good-sized little community. Obviously it's less now, but even if it were zero it'd be an important part of the game's history.

Thirdly, it states that helms tend to not be medable....Yet if you click on the link to the helms page, the first few you see are leather helms, which are medable by definition. Also the mage armor property is so weirdly common that it's pretty easy to find medable metal helms.

I'm not editing the page at the moment. I may at some point, I guess, Be aware, though, that from my perspective as a user and as an occasional editor of pages, the page as originally created (February 2008) is far more useful than the current version (dated March 09). --Galen

To sign comments, use four tildes (~~~~). This works all around the wiki, but it's generally bad form to use it in proper articles unless you specifically want someone to come in and clean up your comment.

There is no base item class called "Reading Glasses". The correct term is "Elven Glasses", and this is what Ceruleus has placed in his new list. My goal in removing such things as the original table is to eliminate such confusions. Granted, a Reading Glasses list is worth keeping (on the Reading Glasses page, of course, not here!), and I've been planning on updating the relevant pages to make the whole matter clearer.

I'm not sure what your point is about the Orc headgear. Technically, the Plate Helm is also important to those who roleplay warriors, and the Wizard Hat important to those who roleplay mages. I don't see the need to stress certain types above others (Especially as it wasn't the Orc Helm/Orc Mask mentioned on the page, but some artifact forms of those items! Again, I want to avoid such confusions!).

Re leather helms, note that they match the other helms in their other characteristics, and most helms are indeed unmedable. They're not hats, if that's what you mean. Granted, "They tend not to be medable unless they have the Mage Armor property" might be a better way of putting it.

- Bomb Bloke 04:27, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Umm.....Ok, how to address this.

"I'm not sure what your point is about the Orc headgear." I could not possibly have been more clear as to what my point was.

Your paragraph on the Reading Glasses....I don't get at all, honestly. It is pointless, from the perspective of the usability of the article, to exclude an important class of items from the main article on an equipment slot simply because there is no base item for it. In all honesty I haven't seen any regular player of this game refer to the concept of a base item in any context except when something goes wrong or appears to. (Like when you buy a Soul Seeker from a vendor and it "reads" as a radiant scimitar, causing momentary confusion. Or when Thrasher's Tail showed as a flax bundle on some players' screens, thus leading to the revelation that it could be used to make necromancer cloth.)

Someone reading the article as you modified it would not immediately know that glasses exist at all.

To say that "most" helms are un-medable is misleading at best. What you appear to refer to is that most of the types of items called "helms" are un-medable barring the mage armor property. However, in terms of actual use, I have seen but one non-medable helm in actual use with any kind of regularity, and that is the Helm of Insight. Every once in a great while, I'll see a non-medable helm as part of a non-medable Armor Set, such as the Knight's Armor or the Grizzle's set.

I'm not editing this article....Looking over the editing history of this article you'll just have it back to your preferred form within minutes. Be aware, however, that whatever basis you're using to edit is definitely not usability or relation to what goes on in the game. And personally I think the UO Guide benefits most when that is the prime criterion used.

Galen 05:17, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I honestly cannot see your point re the Orc stuff. To try and explain my point of view, I look at the Evil Orc Helm and the Orcish Visage and see two very similar, unremarkable items. I just don't get why one should be included on this page and not the other. Either you're assuming some knowledge on my part, or vice versa.

Regarding the Reading Glasses, sticking them in a list of "base items" when they themselves have a base item can only lead to confusion. Perhaps the solution you're looking for is a footnote on the list mentioning that they're often considered as such. However, I believe UOGuide should state facts about the game as "facts", and perceptions of the game as "perceptions". Frankly I think people will have very little trouble finding them via Ceruleus's proposed list as it is (I'm starting to get the impression you haven't read that yet, take a look here if not).

Maybe you're suggesting that the head slot page should aim to have a complete list of named items, like the Hands Slot page for eg? If so, why not just say that?

Information about base items might not matter to many players, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't include it. I mean, sure, I removed the initial base item table from the page, but that was because it was just plain wrong, and I thought it obvious that this was the case - it wasn't just because I felt the lists were easily found by just reading the first paragraph on the page (though that did contribute).

But, for example, if you told the people who actually make items (that is to say, the crafters) that most types of helm are medable, they'll find it most amusing. Leather/Samurai armor is popular for a reason - there just aren't that many base items that are natively medable.

There is a difference between which items exist and which items are popular.

- Bomb Bloke 03:02, 27 March 2009 (UTC)